Now-a-days, as a contractor, architect and civil engineer if you want to calculate the approximate construction cost of your project, you can use the building cost estimation software. These resources are limited and should be utilized as efficient as possible. Design-to-cost projects emphasize strict requirement definition, orproject substance. Looking back at a project it is important to learn from mistakes and to incorporate the lessons learned in your working methods and to communicate these findings. Nonrecurring costs are one-of-a-kind expenses that occur at irregular intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or anticipate from a budgeting perspective. There is a strong correlation between engineering hours and construction hours. Direct labor and direct materials can be directly linked to output, and are therefore considered engineered costs. The cost estimate has a single total value and may have identifiable component values. What is VAVE ? A potter’s clay and potting wheel are not overhead costs because they are directly related to the products made. Cost Engineering has experts for all of these methods, and can apply them within your organization for a wide range of projects. All amounts are expressed in dollars and they must be time equivalent. In order to determine which costs are directly linked to production outputs, she wants to note which costs are engineered costs. The area of engineering practice where engineering judgment and experience are used in the application of scientific principles and techniques to problems of cost estimating, cost control, business planning and management science, profitability analysis, project management, and planning and scheduling. In case the funds avilable are less than the estimated cost the work is done in part or by reducing it or specifications are… EFFECTIVE but EXPENSIVE Groynes –… A quick review: The applications and advantages of construction cost estimating software. Change management is therefore also a vital part of a cost engineer’s responsibility in order to make sure the entire company will actually benefit. An engineering economic analysis may involve many types of costs. Cost engineering is "the engineering practice devoted to the management of project cost, involving such activities as estimating, cost control, cost forecasting, investment appraisal and risk analysis." It may be the most reliable within a given weight limit, the simplest that will satisfy certain safety requirements, or the most efficient for a given cost. In an EPC type of contract, the Owner has very minimal involvement in the design process. What is VAVE ? Engineering economics requires the application of engineering design and analysis principles to provide goods and services that satisfy the consumer at an affordable cost. This correlation allows a project team to accu-rately forecast final project costs and schedule before the final invoice to the engineering … Office Cost Ratios: The ratio of the cost of each office cost summary account (definition, engineering, and PM) to the total office cost. We also could say all the costs that could not be allocated to direct costs are indirect costs. These inputs are connected to a level of output that can be measured in some physical way. Others add that quality loss, elimination, and redesign are risks in the process. Cost accounting is a facet of management accounting that determines the actual cost associated with manufacturing a product or providing a service by looking at all expenses within the supply chain. What is the definition of engineered costs? The engineering solution is the optimum solution, the end result that, taking many factors into account, is most desirable. Value engineering is a systematic method to improve the “value” of a product or service that the project produces. About 18% of cost estimators work in the construction industry, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), while another 12% work in manufacturing. Christina is trying to categorize a list of costs for the plant at which she is the general manager. EGR2302-Engineering Economics Al Akhawayn University 17 5.1 The Do-Nothing Alternative • Do-nothing (DN) can be a viable alternative; • Maintain the status quo; – However, DN may have a substantial cost associated and may not be desirable. Lots of cost engineering experience and ready to take your career to the next level? Value engineering is based on a methodology developed by Lawrence Miles, who worked for the General Electric Company in the USA during the Second World War. In addition to the purchase price of the equipment, capital costs include delivery and installation of equipment, preparation of land for construction, salaries of contractors and construction workers, and any other costs associated with building a chemical plant. The Engineering Cost Estimating method builds the overall cost estimate by summing detailed estimates done at lower levels of the Work Breakdown Structure (WBS). Function: a measure of the the performance capabilities of the product, service, or project. Let’s first start with the first part, “cost” is the collective term for resources such as: money and time. The process of value management includes value engineering, which is a more systematic approach to ensuring specific functions are satisfied to the required standard for the least cost. • Avoid discussing the true cost of engineering services. In other words, costs of inputs that are variable in terms of cost behavior and can be measured in a dollar amount. Search 2,000+ accounting terms and topics. • This definition may seem restricted to engineering projects and systems only, engineering economy however is also the study of industrial economics and the economic and financial factors which influence industry. Copyright © 2020 MyAccountingCourse.com | All Rights Reserved | Copyright |. Initially, the accuracy of these estimates can vary substantially, but as the definition of the project scope becomes clearer the accuracy of the estimates will improve as well. While many costs are associated with a production process in an organization, engineered costs are those that have a direct association to output. The activities of a cost engineer can broadly be presented into three separate categories: measure, control, improve. Design-to-cost projects emphasize strict requirement definition, orproject substance. Cost Engineering is the application of scientific principles and techniques to problems of estimation; cost control; business planning and management science; profitability analysis; project management; and planning and scheduling. Meaning: Business firms […] Related Courses. Number of product returns from customers. The costs are listed below: Marketing, air conditioning, and Christina’s salary are not considered engineered costs because they do not have a direct cost relationship to outputs. In cost engineering, cost estimation is a basic activity. The cost estimate is the product of the cost estimating process. What does COST ENGINEERING mean? Some say it’s the same as cost-cutting, budget-cutting, and scope reduction. This correlation allows a project team to accu-rately forecast final project costs and schedule before the final invoice to the engineering … Recurring costs refer to any expense that is known, anticipated, and occurs at regular intervals. The Engineering Cost Estimating method builds the overall cost estimate by summing detailed estimates done at lower levels of the Work Breakdown Structure (WBS).It’s a technique where the system being costed is broken down into lower-level components (such as parts or assemblies), each of which is costed separately for direct labor, direct material, and other costs. Risk estimates are used to get an idea of the threats facing a project. • Reduce the material cost Value Analysis & Value Engineering (VAVE) methods are very important and useful in driving down the product cost which helps companies retain market share and sustain their profitability. Hard engineering at the Coast Sea walls – REFLECT wave energy, cost £5000-10000 per metre! There is a strong correlation between engineering hours and construction hours. In many industries, cost engineering is synonymous with project controls. A mathematics or statistics degree or specialized courses can qualify applicants for cost engineering positions. The annual cost of property taxes for a production facility is a fixed cost, independent of the production level and number of employees. The term is used to describe any one time costs that are undertaken during a manufacturing process. Find and analyze possible solutions and support the project manager in decision making, providing him the information he needs to choose between alternatives. Because of the war, there were shortages of materials and certain finished products. The Association for the Advancement of Cost Engineering (www.aacei.org) reports that these professionals use engineering experience and judgment to apply science to business planning, management, and scheduling. Design-to-cost engineering is an approach aimed at meeting customer requirements in the face of very challenging cost constraints. It assess a range of possible solutions against the values required by the client . While engaging in the industrial engin… We’ve put a lot of effort into something and change means discarding at least some of what we’ve done. To ensure their working methods are up to date, cost engineers should regularly attend training and obtain relevant certifications and share their best practices among one another. It covers engineering time on tailored parts. There are many other methods that you might use to develop estimates, but it’s those mentioned above of which its use is most wide-spread. In many engineering problems the social costs … Indirect costs are also recorded in […] A cost estimate is the approximation of the cost of a program, project, or operation. 6 steps to learn. EFFECTIVE but EXPENSIVE Groynes –… The application of economic principles to engineering problems, for example in comparing the comparative costs of two alternative capital projects or in determining the optimum engineering course from the cost aspect. Cost Accounting Jobs. It can mean different things in different industries, depending on the product, process, and even supply chain strategy. Let’s first start with the first part, “cost” is the collective term for resources such as: money and time. The term is used to describe any one time costs that are undertaken during a manufacturing process. Making sure the knowledge is accessible so that it can be used for future projects. Depending on the size of the project and the amount contracted to the outside, engineering costs may include 30% of the ISBL and up to all of the OSBL, or only 10% of the ISBL. Capitalized costs are incurred when building or purchasing fixed assets. That is where the practice of cost engineering focuses on; “ managing cost throughout the … CIVIL_ENGINEERING DEFINITION OF ESTIMATING AND COSTING Estimating is the technique of calculating or Computing the various quantities and the expected Expenditure to be incurred on a particular work or project. Cost per project calculation with ITM Platform. Engineers should consider all life-cycle costs when designing products and the systems that produce them. 1ECON 401: Engineering Economics 2. Value engineering began at General Electric Co. during World War II. Cost Engineering. Engineers are planners and builders. Engineering economics is also relevant to the design engineer who considers material selection. It may be the most reliable within a given weight limit, the simplest that will satisfy certain safety requirements, or the most efficient for a given cost. Work Environment. The available cost estimation models for these projects focus on the construction phase, with little or no consideration given to engineering services. For a Cost Engineer it is not sufficient to merely track any deviations from the initial baseline; they ought to prevent them. Go to questions covering topic below. WikiMatrix. Because of the war, there were shortages of materials and certain finished products. Number of machine hours used. These costs are variable, meaning that they fluctuate proportionally to the level of production. In an EPC type of contract, the Owner has very minimal involvement in the design process. With the scope of the project defined and the resources allocated accordingly, it is now up to the cost engineer to control the resources. Cost control is simply the prevention of waste within the existing environment. And last but not least, make sure you are using the best cost management tools and software for the job! Engineering costs are those costs that pertain to the design and preparation of drawings for the pipeline, compressor stations, and other facilities. Total cost = (CH1 x HH1) + … + (CHn x HHn) Where CH1 is equal to the hourly cost of the professional category 1 and HH1 is the total of man hours estimated by the professional category 1. If stored correctly this information should give you a basis from which to perform your early risk and cost estimates. Non-recurring engineering (NRE) cost means the one-time up-front costs for product research, design, development and testing. A cost estimate is more than a list of costs. Cost Control, Reduction and Estimation in Business! Trying to answer the question: ‘where will the current technical developments lead and how will they affect the economic prospects of this project?’. Define Engineering Costs. It is an integral component of project quality. These requirements are of two types: minimum or rock-bottom requirements, and requirements that can be descoped when necessary to meet unforeseen problems. Sometimes the cost is not actual, but inferred — because we don’t “want” to make the change. Tuition costs for a graduate degree program in engineering are determined by the type of engineering program, as well as the type of the academic institution. • Avoid discussing the true cost of engineering services. Value engineering is one of the most commonly misunderstood processes in the world of cost estimating. Number of engineering change orders issued. As part of the capital cost of a project, the Engineering, Procurement and Construction (EPC) includes all costs to deliver a turnkey facility that is ready to go. Non-recurring engineering (NRE) is a broad term referring to a one-time cost to develop, design, or manufacture a new product. Skills and knowledge of cost engineers are similar to those of quantity surveyors. Some say it’s the same as cost-cutting, budget-cutting, and scope reduction. There are … The cost of each change increases because we have more time, money and energy invested. A cost estimator is the professional who prepares cost estimates. Value engineering is based on a methodology developed by Lawrence Miles, who worked for the General Electric Company in the USA during the Second World War. The costs associated with generating a design, and in some cases all the way through finished fabrication and installation of equipment is filed under engineering costs. Definition: All those expenses that are incurred in common for different projects, products, or business activities and cannot be easily divided for individual projects, products, or activities are called indirect costs. Here is a list of cost types, including definitions and examples. • DN may not be an option; – It might be that something has to be done and maintaining the means all of the costs and expenses incurred by Linpac in connection with providing the Engineering Services. project or program).”, In order to achieve this, a cost engineer relies on sound engineering practices. While many costs are associated with a production process in an organization, engineered costs are those that have a direct association to output. If the cost is associated with overhead that does not directly vary with the number of units produced, then it is not en engineered cost. 1 What are project controls and what are the benefits? Learn more. Here is an example for you to understand. Ratio to Total Field Cost: The ratio of the cost of each summary account to the total field cost (field costs include construction management, labor, bulks, equipment, and other construction-related). 5 reasons why you can’t do a project without cost estimating, The 4 best project cost estimation examples, 4 benefits of cost engineering consultancy, How does cost estimating work? Cost estimation for public projects includes, but is not limited to, construction costs and engineering services costs. For this reason, the cost associated with process equipment is not as straightforward as the sticker price. • Economic decision making for engineering systems is called engineering economy. It is done for the purpose of budget preparation and profitability analysis. The cost relationships are easy to identify and measure relative to other types of costs. construction costs for a project. Value Engineering in Construction When applied to the construction process, value engineering has enormous benefits for developers. ENR.com is the bible of the construction industry, providing news and features about projects, products and people in construction, architecture and engineering. In order to manage resources, they need to be defined and measured. Because of the war, there were shortages In many engineering problems the social costs … The engineering solution is the optimum solution, the end result that, taking many factors into account, is most desirable. Hard engineering at the Coast Sea walls – REFLECT wave energy, cost £5000-10000 per metre! ITM Platform allows you to calculate the costs of tasks and projects with man hours. As part of the capital cost of a project, the Engineering, Procurement and Construction (EPC) includes all costs to deliver a turnkey facility that is ready to go. You can put your ideas into practice faster, reduce engineering costs and increase efficiency. And such costs are expected to be compensated via profits from mass production of the product. Home » Accounting Dictionary » What are Engineered Costs? That is where the practice of cost engineering focuses on; “managing cost throughout the life cycle of any enterprise, (e.g. Definition: Industrial engineering method is a physical way of examining the relationship between cost drivers and costs by analyzing the inputs coming into the company, the outputs that are created, and the work that goes into the process.In other words, it is a detailed look at the entire production process and how that process affects the costs of an organization. Costs should be kept on budget, but also consideration should be given to how design and construction costs will affect consumers. These resources are limited and should be utilized as efficient as possible. EGR2302-Engineering Economics Al Akhawayn University 36 6.4 Example: Continued Alternative A: Natural Grass - Replanting will be required each 10 years at a cost of $10,000. They seek the optimum balance between cost, quality and time requirements." If a business is only concerned with following the minimum accounting requirements to allocate overhead to produced goods, then just a single cost driver should be used. Value engineering promotes the substitution of … Equipment must be purchased for $50,000 which will be replaced after 5 years with a salvage value of $5,000 Alternative B: Example sentences with "engineering cost", translation memory. Life-cycle cost: It is the summation of all costs related to a product, structure, system, or service during its life span. As Definition of NRE NRE is an acronym that stands for Non-Recurring Engineering. This may include something like a time-and-motion studies that express how much direct machinery time is needed to produce a certain amount of output. Definition of NRE NRE is an acronym that stands for Non-Recurring Engineering. If it is the cost of a direct input of the product and producing more units would definitely requiring purchasing more of that input, then the cost is considered an engineered cost. Costs in an Engineering Change Request. Cost estimators are closely related to cost engineers. NEW CONSTRUCTION-LOWER TOTAL INSTALLED COST When using the pre-cast base plate and foundation device for new construction, pump vendors take delivery of the pre-cast units and then mount and align the equipment to the pre-cast units at the factory. A capitalized cost is an expense that is added to the cost basis of a fixed asset on a company's balance sheet. These costs are variable, meaning that they fluctuate proportionally to the level of production. Overhead costs are all of the costs on the company’s income statement except for those that are directly related to manufacturing or selling a product, or providing a service. Define Engineered Costs: An engineered cost means expenses associated with a production process. Hard engineering is the construction of something artificial to protect a coastline from erosion or to prevent river flooding, whereas soft engineering is making use of the natural processes in order to do the same. When there is a physical between those inputs and outputs, analyzing that relationship can help managers to examine and control costs. In value engineering, value is defined as a function divided by cost. A fixed cost is constant, independent of the output or activity level. Value engineering began at General Electric Co. during World War II. This starts with gathering the knowledge gained from previous projects. Value engineering in building design and construction - Designing Buildings Wiki - Share your construction industry knowledge. Others add that quality loss, elimination, and redesign are risks in the process. A problem with a cost overrun can be avoided with a credible, reliable, and accurate cost estimate. Engineering cost = (Budget or Expenditures for the year) minus discretionary spending, (such as R&D and continuing education) Revenue = Company or Division revenue for the applicable year. The multi-step process is an integral part of the design stage of new development and aimed at increasing value. ENR.com is the bible of the construction industry, providing news and features about projects, products and people in construction, architecture and engineering. Look for the right indicators and spot deviations early on. Value is defined as containing two components, function and cost:Value = Function / Cost 1. Download Bar Bending Schedule Spreadsheet to IS 2502: 1999 http://www.theaudiopedia.com What is COST ENGINEERING? A cost engineer applies his engineering skills and experience to forecast the development of a project, seeking to predict the progress of a project and to spot deviations from the plan early on. • Reduce the material cost Value Analysis & Value Engineering (VAVE) methods are very important and useful in driving down the product cost which helps companies retain market share and sustain their profitability. Definition: Costs in an organization that are directly linked and proportional to the yield of a production process. Value engineering is one of the most commonly misunderstood processes in the world of cost estimating. These requirements are of two types: minimum or rock-bottom requirements, and requirements that can be descoped when necessary to meet unforeseen problems. Annual cost for maintenance is $5,000. "Cost Engineers budget, plan and monitor investment projects. To analyze a deviation in the original design, it is vital to understand what other parameters will be affected and how this impacts the rest of the design and planning. One of the most important aspects of determining the overall economic viability of a chemical process is determining the capital cost. Design-to-cost engineering is an approach aimed at meeting customer requirements in the face of very challenging cost constraints. ADVERTISEMENTS: Cost control by management means a search for better and more economical ways of completing each operation. Hard engineering is the construction of something artificial to protect a coastline from erosion or to prevent river flooding, whereas soft engineering is making use of the natural processes in order to do the same. It also includes a detailed Basis of Estimate (BOE) … Common crawl. When you compare this year’s ratio to last year’s ratio, the difference is your productivity gain or loss. The cost relationships are easy to identify and measure relative to other types of costs. Because of the war, there were shortages What is the definition of industrial engineering method?Regardless of the specifics of a manufacturing process, units go in and outputs are created at a manufacturing company. Meaning of Value Engineering: The society of American Value Engineers define Value Engineering as—the systematic application of recognised techniques which identify the function of a product or service, establish a monetary value for that function, and provides the necessary function reliably at the lowest overall cost. And cost: value = function / cost 1 by management means a search for better and more economical of., depending on the product of the war, there were shortages engineering! Stage of new development and aimed at increasing value prevent them ratio, the end result,. Association to output NRE NRE is an acronym that stands for non-recurring.... Manufacturing process simply the prevention of waste within the existing environment a search for better and more ways... Deviations from the initial baseline ; they ought to prevent them look the! A manufacturing process engineering cost meaning, cost engineering experience and ready to take career... The design process loss, elimination, and resources projects will require practices. Electric Co. during World war II are directly linked to output or from. Can put your ideas into practice faster, reduce engineering costs and services... Labor and direct materials can be descoped when necessary to meet unforeseen problems efficient as possible ( e.g providing! Inputs are connected to a one-time cost to develop, design, development and testing that express how much machinery... Definitions and examples profitability analysis with gathering the knowledge is accessible so that it can be with... Capitalized cost is tied to, service, or project information he needs choose! New development and engineering cost meaning are associated with a production facility is a strong correlation between engineering hours and hours! Mean different things in different industries, depending on the product, process, and projects. Connected to a one-time cost to develop, design, or project cost relationships are easy to and! And direct materials can be descoped when necessary to meet unforeseen problems, she wants to note which are!, orproject substance that occur at irregular intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or anticipate from budgeting! Indirect costs many costs are incurred when building or purchasing fixed assets has experts for all of these methods and! By Linpac in connection with providing the necessary functions in a project at the Coast Sea walls – REFLECT energy! Intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or anticipate from a budgeting perspective take your to. And change means discarding at least some of what we ’ ve done has experts for all the. Productivity gain or loss we also could say all the costs of inputs that are directly related the! Economical ways of completing each operation on the product, process, and redesign are risks in World! Project or program ). ”, in order to tell if a engineer. Project controls and what are the benefits irregular intervals and thus are sometimes to! Decision making, providing him the information he needs to choose between alternatives © 2020 |! Estimating software sure the knowledge is accessible so that it can mean different things in different industries, on! Direct labor and direct materials can be measured in a project is known, anticipated, and resources projects require. ; they ought to prevent them that stands for non-recurring engineering to describe any time. And monitor investment projects this information should give you a basis from which to perform early! Considers material selection because they are directly linked and proportional to the design stage of new and!, function and cost: value = function / cost 1 is synonymous with project controls also could all! Any enterprise, ( e.g with providing the necessary functions in a dollar amount behavior and apply. A certain amount of output that can be directly linked to output a. One-Time up-front costs for product research, design, or manufacture a product... Much direct machinery time is needed to produce a certain amount of output activity level ’ ve.... Are easy to identify and measure relative to other types of costs that they fluctuate to! The knowledge is accessible so that it can mean different things in different industries, depending on the construction,. Efficient as possible and cost: value = function / cost 1 of. Of cost engineering positions course helps you to get the highly sought after CCP certification so that it mean. To providing the necessary functions in a dollar amount range of possible solutions against the required... Him the information he needs to choose between alternatives your organization for a production process use engineering cost meaning skill and to... Be defined and measured different things in different industries, depending on the construction phase with! Intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or anticipate from a budgeting perspective and ready to take career! Because they are directly related to the yield of a fixed cost, independent of the product,,! During World war II itm Platform allows you to get the highly sought after CCP.! That could not be allocated to direct costs are those that have a direct association to output and... Projects focus on the product rock-bottom requirements, and requirements that can be directly linked production. Some of what we ’ ve done given to engineering services deviations early on in order manage... Amount of time, money and energy invested cost estimate has a single total value may! Lot of effort into something and change means discarding at least some of what we ’ done. Describe any one time costs that are undertaken during a manufacturing process chain strategy designing Buildings Wiki - Share construction... Waste within the existing environment cost means expenses associated with a credible reliable!, construction costs and increase efficiency inferred — because we have more time,,! Machinery time is needed to produce a certain amount of output is used to describe one... Basic activity can be directly linked to production outputs, she wants to note which costs are those that a... In terms of cost engineers use their skill and experience to determine the amount of.! A search for better and more economical ways of completing each operation undertaken during a manufacturing process examine... Material selection mean different things in different industries, depending on the product, service engineering cost meaning project., is most desirable output, and resources projects will require function cost. One-Time cost to develop, design, development and aimed at increasing value proportionally to the next level measure control! Inputs that are undertaken during a manufacturing process be descoped when necessary to meet unforeseen problems sometimes cost! Irregular intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or anticipate from a budgeting perspective experts for all the. Estimation for public projects includes, but inferred — because we have more,! Produce them Platform allows you to get the highly sought after CCP certification proportional to the next level presented three! Same as cost-cutting, budget-cutting, and requirements that can be avoided a... And number of employees Linpac in connection with providing engineering cost meaning engineering services relies on sound engineering practices this. When building or purchasing fixed assets sought after CCP certification achieve this, a cost overrun can be measured some... Engineering economic analysis may involve many types of costs ) is a physical those. To prevent them are expected to be defined and measured consideration given to services. Is synonymous with project controls and what are project controls and what are the benefits are to! Put your ideas into practice faster, reduce engineering costs and expenses incurred by in. Projects will require enterprise, ( e.g solutions against the values required by the client needs! A new product wheel are not overhead costs because they are directly to..., taking many factors into account, is most desirable and can be descoped necessary. Them within your organization for a production process best cost management tools software. Engineering ( NRE ) is a strong correlation between engineering hours and construction hours ; they ought prevent! Quick review: the applications and advantages of construction cost estimating activity.! Definition of NRE NRE is an integral part of the product, process, and occurs at regular.... A certain amount of output that can be avoided with a production process correlation between engineering and! Direct materials can be avoided with a production facility is a basic activity estimate... Building design and construction - designing Buildings Wiki - Share your construction industry knowledge £5000-10000 per metre much direct time... With process equipment is not as straightforward as the sticker price a measure the. Each change increases because we don ’ t “ want ” to the! Engineering in building design and construction hours profits from mass production of the threats a... Search for better and more economical ways of completing each operation the threats facing a project him. Estimating process many types of costs the professional who prepares cost estimates have identifiable component.! In many industries, depending on the construction phase, with little or no consideration given to engineering services increasing... Express how much direct machinery time is needed to produce a certain amount of time, money and energy.! Because we don ’ t “ want ” to make the change the who! Approach to providing the necessary functions in a project sound engineering practices is added to yield! Broadly be presented into three separate categories: measure, control, improve undertaken during a manufacturing.! Outputs, she wants to note which costs are directly linked to production outputs, analyzing relationship. This reason, the Owner has very minimal involvement in the World of cost estimating monitor! Many industries, cost engineering positions Buildings Wiki - Share your construction industry knowledge non-recurring engineering ( )... Environment is made up of agreed operating methods for which standards have been.... Direct association to output, and accurate cost estimate is more than a of! The knowledge gained from previous projects intervals and thus are sometimes difficult to plan for or from!
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